Ed Hoculi
Oct 02, 2007
12:13 PM | | ;
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(let me preface this by saying i have officiated some games in this league and have also officiated and played in numerous state/national flag events so i know the flag game pretty well - both as a ref and a player)
Here are a few rules changes i`d bring up at the captains meeting next year if i played in this league:
*when a kickoff goes out of bounds it should NOT be automatically placed on the 40 yard line, 1st and 20 -- this is a HUGE disadvantage for the offense, playing a first and 20...the rule should be applied like every other football league (HS, college, pro, flag) -- kick out of bounds is a 25-yard penalty from the spot of the kick, take it where it went out or 5 yards back and re-kick...basically you should get the ball on the 35, 1st and 5 (not 1st and 20 from the 40)...this game is all about field awareness...you always want a first and short (not a 1st and 20)...if it were me i`d just kick it out of bounds every time.
*penalty enforcement -- for some reason in this league penalty enforcement is messed up...Example - Second down on the 35 and the line to gain is the 40, run to the 42 and flag guard (10 yard penalty from spot of foul) and eventually deflagged at 45 in REAL flag football the def captain should have the following option: take result of play (giving the offense 1st and 15 from the 45), penalize 10 yards from 42 (take them back to 32) where the line to gain SHOULD be the 40 (2nd and 8)...But in this league a penalty like the one described above would be first down and 2 lines from the 32 -- this makes no sense..what if it were fourth down, your going to give the offense a first down even though they fouled -- makes no sense...or even better what if the foul was an illegal forward pass (which requires a loss of down)...technically it should be a turnover on downs b/c of the loss of down but here it`s a first down and two lines to go -- just something to consider and bring up for consideration.
Also, make sure your team captain is always given the option on any penalty...for instance, if i have an impeding foul (holding the runner)on the defense, i`ve had offensive teams just automatcially say yea, take the penalty, we want the yardage (when in fact the penalty puts them in 1st and 18 instead of maybe a second and 5, etc.
*Also, you can always take a penalty but decline the yardage....this may come into play on a roughing the passer...if you have the ball on the 26 yard line for instance you may not want the ball first and goal from the 16...you could simply play 1st and 6 from the 26...just take the penalty but decline the yardage.
These are just a few obervations and suggestions. Interested to hear how you guys feel about certain rules, etc.
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Interesting
Oct 02, 2007
5:32 PM | | | ; |
Very interesting. i`m going to have to chew on this one for a bit :)
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the problem is
Oct 02, 2007
7:22 PM | | | ; |
If you asked to take the penaly without the yardage most refs would look at you with the crook eye because they don`t know this is an option.
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#2
Oct 02, 2007
8:30 PM | | | ; |
Most don`t even know basic rules. Like at Pop. Tree #2
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 03, 2007
1:21 PM | | | ; |
what are some of the issues you guys are having in terms of rules, etc. -- maybe i can help educate some of the other officials on mistakes they`re making, etc.
we can`t make it better unless we know what the problems are (and i`m not talking about judgment type things - i`m talking about misapplied rules)
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The first point is a good one
Oct 03, 2007
2:05 PM | | | ; |
I totally agree about the kickoff. The other ones are a little more "esoteric".
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re: #2
Oct 03, 2007
4:03 PM | | | ; |
Hit the nail on the head in terms of what needs to be fixed first. The refs inconsistency has made some of these games kind of annoying. I personally don`t really care if the games are called tight or loose; JUST PICK ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND MAKE IT CONSISTENT. I have seen the same exact same play called totally different by different officiating groups. Now, I know the rules (or at least I think I do), and there is not a lot of wiggle room for the same play to be called two entirely different ways unless one (or both) of the officiating groups does not actually know the rules and how they should be interpreted. Before we start fixing some of the stuff that Hoculi talks about above (which are good points), lets work on getting the officials to learn all of the current, basics rules first.
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 03, 2007
4:19 PM | | | ; |
#2 is really not referring to mis-applied rules ... you are talking more about judgment.
As a player who also officiates i basically go by the principal of "advantage" "disadvantage".
Had a play the other night where the runner "flag guarded -- attempted to swipe the hand of the defender)...but, the defensive player was able to pull the flag so there was no call" ...team B complained and i did acknowldge that yes the offensive player did flag guard however there was no advantage gained thus no flag...if the runner had gotten away then a flag would have come out -- it`s as simple as that.
Same thing goes with holding on the line of scrimmage...you guys hold more than the boys on Sunday (in the NFL)...but that`s not going to get called unless the infraction has an impact on the play...if you`re 15 yards from the QB and the QB is starting his throwing motion and the OL is holding that is not going to get a flag.
It`s pretty simple...the officials are out there to call the obvious and let you guys play. but, rough play, trash talk and anything involving safety should be flagged everytime.
In terms of consistency as long as the calls within the game are consistent (a hold on one side is a hold on the other) that`s the best you can hope for...as for getting the same type of game called on a tue night and a wed night with different officials that is tough to do.
#2 -- give me an example of the play that called 2 different ways by 2 different offical groups
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Example
Oct 04, 2007
11:05 AM | | | ; |
An example is the rule about blocking in the back. I`ve seen it called where if a blocker pushes or hits someone when the numbers on the defender`s back are visible, that is called a block in the back and is a penalty. I have also heard that if the player is engaged with the defender (his hands on him), then the blocker can hit the defender in the back, even if that block in the back pushes him away from the ball carrier and prevents them from pulling the flag.
Based on reading the rules, I think that the first interpretation is more correct, where blocks can and only should be made on the front of the rusher.
What should the call be there?
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Rhinos92Locs
Oct 04, 2007
11:53 AM | | | ; |
"Officiating with Ed". I like this new series. Ed, long time listener, first time caller. When rushing the QB, I know I am allowed to knock the ball out of the QB`s hand when the QB is in a throwing motion barring that I have made no contact with his arm. My question is, again barring no contact has been made with the QB`s arm, am I allowed to take the ball from the QB`s hand while he is in a throwing motion thus allowing a change of possesion? I`ll hang up and let you answer.
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 04, 2007
3:50 PM | | | ; |
In regards to the above block in the back example i`d would consider `any` block in the back a foul - if you see numbers don`t push him in the back, easy as that.
I`ve also seen where DBs are `chucking` WRs within the 5 yards but once the WR passes you (even if he is still with in the 5 yards) you cannot shove him in the back.
As for our rusher chasing the quarterback in flag football a defender cannot `strip` or bat the `bat` the ball away from an offense player -- this is an illegal batting foul. The only way the ball can change possession once an offensive player has it is via a INT (on a forward pass) or a `fumble` INT of a backward pass or lateral...you cannot take the ball from the QB. I try to tell rushers they should be going for the flags anyway - any attempt to bat the ball down which comes into contact with the QBs arm is roughing the passer (10 yard penalty and auto first down) -- even if the defender touches the ball and subsequently contacts the QB it is still roughing (basically you cannot contact the QB when he is in a throwing motion ...period)
any other questions out there?
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Wrong Again
Oct 04, 2007
4:30 PM | | | ; |
Ed you don`t know jack. You are wrong on almost every rule. Shut up and play loser.
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Example 2
Oct 04, 2007
4:42 PM | | | ; |
Thanks for the response, Ed, I hope that the referees in the league are looking at this thread to know the correct interpretation of the rulebook when making calls.
When it comes to impeding, what truly constitutes, in your mind, holding the runner up? I have seen it called where a tug on the shorts gets a flag, and I have also seen runners get physically tripped up or shorts pulled half off and it not get called. What are your thoughts on this?
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thats is crap ed
Oct 04, 2007
7:44 PM | | | ; |
A flag guard is a flag guard, regardless of this advantage/disadvantage BS....throw the flag and mark the foul off because it is what you get paid to do. Had a ref see the ball clearly hit the ground which should have killed the play at the spot. But because the ref was on the sideline and not in the backfield he said "I cannot call that". If you see an infraction of the rules you must throw a flag.
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 05, 2007
12:34 PM | | | ; |
for the last poster who said "throw the flag and mark the foul off because it is what you get paid to do" -- i disagree. Officials are paid to manage the game and create a fair atmosphere for both teams not throw flags. If there is a foul then a flag will be thrown -- what officials need to do is apply good judgement (a la when a flag is pulled even though a offensive player may have flag guarded you have nothing - if the players gets away then you have a foul...same goes if you have a hold by on OL that has nothing to do with the play -- you let that stuff go...but you talk to the player and tell him to `clean it up` so u knows you saw him and is unlikely to do it again -- all of this is using good judgment and preventive officiating.
In the situation where the offensive player likely flag guarded but the defender pulled the flag anyway there should be no foul. Believe me you guys dont want flags on every play and seeing some of the teams out there that`s exactly what alot of them would get --it`s called preventive officiating and it takes place at every level.
As for impeding (def holding on a ball carrier) again this is judgement...usualy the obvious ones are called pulling entire shirt/shorts, physically holding the running up, etc. ones where players trip and fall is usually incdental contact (runner spinning, etc. and loses balance coupled with slight contact for the defender and he falls).
For the play where the ball suppposedly hit the ground that is not an `infraction of the rules" or a foul -- it`s a dead ball yes but that`s the judgment of the calling official (the referee who is in the backfield - that`s his responsibilty and he has the best view) -- honestly the guy on the sideline should not be looking at that anyway, his responsiblity is the initial line charge and then WRs downfield.
You must also understand that the ref in the backfield has the toughest job - he`s essentially responsible for the QB - but he most also watch usually 3 rushers and 3 blockers -- pretty tough to watch 3 sets of blockers and the QB all at once - somethings things will be missed and that`s just the nature of the game.
Put those plays behind you and play on.
Also remember officials dont win or lose games - players do...an official has never caught a TD pass, missed a block, dropped a pass for missed a flag...Sometimes it`s hard to realize that but as a player and officials it is much clearer now.
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Rhinos92Locs
Oct 05, 2007
1:36 PM | | | ; |
Ed, I was with you until you mentioned letting holding calls or any other calls for that matter go if it didn`t have anything to do with the play. If you do that, you`re giving the inexperienced, undisciplined teams an advantage. Good teams have an advantage because they are more disciplined and experienced which means less penalties (i.e, holding, flag guarding, impeding a runner, etc.)
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 06, 2007
5:15 PM | | | ; |
Rhinos - not giving inexperienced, undisciplined teams an advantage at all -- if the infraction happens 20 yards from the play and has nothing to do with the outcome then there will be no call; however, i will make a note to tell the guilty party that i did see the infraction and will be on the lookout for it again -- usually if a player knows u r watching he`s less likely to committ a similar foul in the future (basic preventive officiating)
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#21
Oct 07, 2007
7:29 AM | | | ; |
That`s the whole point. The officials never tell the guilty party that they did something wrong even though it`s not part of the play. They only time they do tell you is when it is part of the play and your team has just lost 10 yards for causing said infraction.
Secondly, there has been many times where I have pulled the flag even though it was clearly flag guarding. You could see the red marks on my hand as proof. Point is; the offensive player should be penalized for the infraction regardless if defense pulls the flag or not. A penalty is a penalty.
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pop player
Oct 07, 2007
7:32 PM | | | ; |
Refs at pop tree really need to learn how to call the games correctly. Too many bad calls this season. Ed please re-evuluate your staff at pop tree.
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offical 2
Oct 08, 2007
7:45 PM | | | ; |
Great idea if you would like to change the “house rules”….
ED, first of all I’m not sure what rulebook you are reading. Rule Book you should be reading from is the USFA National Rules 6th Edition. First of all the field in flag is a total of 100 yards compared to the ones we play on of 120 yards. On the 100 yard field the kick is from the 20 yd line restraining line is 20 yards apart and if ball goes out beyond your restraining line 40 yd line ball goes to the 40 yard line (mid field) Rule 6.2 art 2. If the ball goes out between restraining lines ball is placed were the ball went out. Rule 6.2 art 1. The VA State rules the restraining line is 30 yards apart. Now if the ball goes out beyond the restraining line the ball is placed at the 30 yard line. “First and ten”.
Ed, the way that the officials are administrating the rule of “gaining the zone” is way the President of National Flag Association interrupts the rule of “line to gain”. We as officials have disagreed with this interpretation for years but that is way it is going to be. We can play a different way at the local level BUT when we get to VA state and National it will be the other way.
SECOND, Let’s take your fourth down if the runner gains the line to gain at the 40 yard line and at the 42 yard line tosses a forward pass to a teammate. Flag at the forty-two yard line for illegal forward pass. Penalty 5 yards and DON’T replay the down. First down and 23 yards to go (two lines to gain) I know this does not seam right but that is the way the National director interrupts the flag rules.
On the subject of two action of penalty administration 1) accepting the penalty or
2) declining the penalty. Where in the world are you getting the penalty can be accepted without yardage let us know where that can be find in ANY rule book.
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 10, 2007
9:25 AM | | | ; |
thanks for the comments official 2 -- i`ve read thru the USFA rule book and it`s not very thorough at all...trust me you can accept a penalty without yardage.
In my fourth down example that you eluded too for a illegal forward pass foul you are correct, you don`t replay the down, you lose a down -- therefore in the example i cited team A should techincally turn the ball over on downs to the defense and not play a 1st and 23 -- but i understand the USFA rules, they just don`t make sense.
There are probabaly some other minor enforcement differences between USFA and NIRSA rules (national intramural and recreation assocation rules) by which i am very familiar -- these are the rules by which college intramural programs are run (screen blocking, no `contact` blocking in the bacfield for downfield, etc.)
yes we should be playing on a 100-yard field with line to gains at the 20, 40, 20...typically in this game (NIRSA) there are no kickoffs (only to start each half) and teams get the ball to start each drive at the 15, 1st and 5. Also there really should be no kicks (other than punts) as in FGs and PATS but that`s a USFA modification...in NIRSA it`s either go for 1 (from the 3 or 2 from the 10) and PATs are probably the most important plays in the entire game - one recommendation i would have to speed the game up is to not have kickoffs other than to start each half and to start each possesion on the 35 (1st and 5) - when teams kick it runs about 2 min off the game clock.
Also, probably the biggest difference between USFA and NIRSA is the flag belt...in NIRSA you play with triple threat flags (3 flags sewn onto the belt where the entire belt comes off when a player is de-flagged) -- when i ran my league back in NC we played with these belts -- they are easier for the defense to de-flag and 100x eaiser for the officials to tell when and where a player is `tackled`...NIRSA also plays where the ball is - not the flags (but i understand USFA plays where the flags are).
Granted there are some differences in the rules and i definately favor the NIRSA way but i`m doing my best to get on the same page with USFA. With that said, officiating is officiating regardless of which rules are applied.
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Rhinos92Locs
Oct 10, 2007
1:05 PM | | | ; |
Ed,
To beat a dead horse, someone in the weeknight league posted this taken from the rule book in regard to stripping the ball.
"Here is the official rule book information:
Under Rules, Part 10, Under "Playing Rules," Rule 7- The scrimmage, snapping, handling and passing of the ball, #19 (this is on page 48) An opponent snatches ("steals") the ball from the ball carrier. RULING: The ball continues in play."
How do you interpret that from my earlier question?
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 10, 2007
2:58 PM | | | ; |
Rhinos - i remember reading that now and still really can`t explain it -- my personal interpretation is if this happened to the QB who had begun his throwing motion i would rule roughing the passer -- the rusher should be going for the flags (not the ball). However i guess i would have to see the whole play before i can tell you what i would do -- if it`s a clean swipe from behind, etc. then i might let it go...but trying to `snatch` the ball from a ball carrier, etc. that`s a no brainer.
last i checked this was flag football and thus there are no fumbles so a defender shouldn`t be trying to strip or `snatch the ball` from an offensive player -- any of the above mentioned would be a foul for impeding, holding, etc. in my book. Defenders should be going for the flags - not the ball.
also, a runner who carries the ball near his flags when running, etc. and the ball essentially blocks the defender from getting his flag would be flag guarding.
Good question...there are a number of different types and styles of flag football out there (contact, screen, contact on line, 7on7, 8on8, 9on9, etc.) so there are bound to be some rule differences and things that don`t make a lot of sense. I guess i`m a flag football purist - sorry big guys on the OL/DL - there is no place for you in `true` flag football --it`s a QB and WR game.
but i`m trying to adjust to this game...
good dialog...any other questionable type things you guys have encountered.
*Here are a few questions i even have (not sure what the rules are in this league and could not find them in the book)
1) I assume a FG attempt is dead once it is kicked (cannt be `returned` by Team B...a la Devin Hester)? or is it dead once it crosses the goal line as in HS football.
2) I`ve seen 1 and 2-pt PAT tries that have been intercepted blown dead...in `my version` of flag football PATs can be returned by the def for 2 pts...are PAT tries ruled dead after a change of possession?
Thanks - Ed
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offical 2
Oct 10, 2007
8:21 PM | | | ; |
Ed,
Question about accepting the penalty WITHOUT yardage is in what rule book USFA, NFHS, NCAA or NFL and what page rule section.
On to your questions
1)USFA On the first part of your question ALL FG attempts are “dead ball” Rule 6-4 a13
2) USFA yes they are ruled DEAD..
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A fan
Oct 10, 2007
11:33 PM | | | ; |
Hi Ed first time caller long time listener here... Big fan, wondering how the cream / clear is treating you ??? your guns in the new strips look huge.
But my question, is there a way that we can Ice the kicker, like the chuckleheads in the NFL ??? And with out a returnable short FG attempt whats the point.
Thanks I`ll hang up now.
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Ed Hoculi
Oct 11, 2007
10:05 AM | | | ; |
Official 2 - thanks for the clarification on the abovementioned questions...as for a `rule` in which you can accept a penalty (for an auto first down) and decline the yardage i dont know the rule/section off the top of my head but i will look into it.
A fan - a defensive player may request a timeout prior to any offensive snap...keep in mind i said prior (not during)...also a request for a timeout is just that - a request. It`s not always granted, esp if it`s simaltaneous with the snap, etc. And i agree - what`s the point of the FG attempt...i`d take kicking (other than punting and a kickoff to start each half) out of the game all together.
Question for the players out there - in this league you can now take the ball on the 20 (1st and 20) if you are trailing after an opponent score...i`ve seen a number of teams do this - other than trying to conserve time late in the half/game why in the world would u want this severe disadvantage (1st and 20 -- that`s the worst position you can be in)...Have them kick and either run it back to the 19 or the 39 - whichever line is closer and play a 1st and 1 (but that`s just my two cents)
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again
Oct 14, 2007
5:43 PM | | | ; |
refs at pop tree #2
they suck A$$
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OFFICIAL 2
Oct 14, 2007
8:24 PM | | | ; |
TO AGAIN....
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM AT PT #2 WITH OFFICIALS
DID YOU WIN OR DID THE OFFICIALS CAUSE YOUR TEAM TO LOSE?
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