Geezer
May 07, 2007
7:10 AM | | ;
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I was surprised that the Rhino`s were such favorites against the Scrubs, but even more surprised by the outcome: 26-0?!?! The Scrubs have always had one of the best offenses in the league...what the heck happened?
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Rhinos
May 07, 2007
8:18 AM | | | ; |
In fairness to the Scrubs, they only had 9 guys and were missing some of their regulars.
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.02
May 07, 2007
9:08 AM | | | ; |
Its a great lesson on an old debate: precision trumps talent every time. They have a good qb and some good players...watch out if they get it together. Look at the recent "dynasties" of the Sharks and My Plumber: good, not great talent but awesome teamwork.
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No cents
May 07, 2007
9:54 AM | | | ; |
so two cents.. are you saying the Rhinos don`t have talent?
I`ll agree with you on the precision part, but I think all of the teams you mentioned have a lot of talent.
I think its the combination of talent, precision and experience. There`s a lot of teams out there with talent, but the precision and experience is what carries the day... just check the old farts at the top of the leaderboard.
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observer
May 07, 2007
9:59 AM | | | ; |
Rhinos probly would of still won if all the Scrubs were there but it would of been close. Maybe a 3 point game either way.
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.02
May 07, 2007
10:02 AM | | | ; |
Didnt want to imply a lack of talent, just emphasizing teamwork. If you saw the Sharks and my Plumber in their primes, one would note they were very similar:
good o-line that blocked/not pass catchers
accurate qb
reliable wr`s/none of them were even remotely devastating
They ran simple, well timed offenses.
Defensively, the only really dominant defense of the last few years were the Lions, and they were very cohesive...despite playing aggressively (unlike most of the other "powerhouses"), they rarely got burned.
Its all about teamwork...
For the Rhino`s they have some very good players but I think they will be the first to tell you they dont have anyone who will scare you offensively...they are just very precise, patient and creative. Their qb is resourceful and smart. On defense, however, they have 1-2 beasts that are hard to account for...
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Rhino #33
May 07, 2007
12:21 PM | | | ; |
I know one of those beasts will even pull your pants down if you beat him to the outside!
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player
May 07, 2007
12:40 PM | | | ; |
Lions don`t have it together in defense, in the past they used to play man to man coverage because they were all individual players, not team players..
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re: player
May 07, 2007
12:56 PM | | | ; |
So you mean to tell me they have a beast D because they are individual players? Just because they have enough talent to cover 1 on 1...doesn`t mean they are not team players.
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.02
May 07, 2007
1:33 PM | | | ; |
I dont think anyone can argue (maybe they can...I have been wrong before) that of the "alpha" teams of the last several years only the Lions/Wolves and both Raider teams (Rossiter/Option and CHurch/MenInTights) had aggressive defenses. Most everyone plays a soft, bend-dont-break zone. These three mostly played man. Am I wrong?
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keeper
May 07, 2007
1:40 PM | | | ; |
I agree with you .02.
90% of the teams play the bend-don`t-brake D. Those team you listed, play man up and rush 3 or 4 at a time has shown some success in D.
BUT not all team have the athletes to do so. Thats why we see the more soft D in this league.
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player
May 07, 2007
2:02 PM | | | ; |
it means that the lions have always had big egos and it`s the only way they can blame one another if there are mistakes, they believe there is an I in team....
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re: player
May 07, 2007
2:03 PM | |
.02
May 07, 2007
2:12 PM | | | ; |
I heard the Lions wanted to play zone BUT they decided that would mean they would get along and be civil, so they decided to play man instead. Either that OR the best way to get a pass rush on is account for wrs and rush the rest. One or the other...I cant decide.
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No cents
May 07, 2007
2:12 PM | | | ; |
.02 cents, if i may rebutt in this spirited debate, I`m not sure I agree with the point (I think you`re trying to make) that man = aggressive.
So if you go man, don`t you only have one guy pressuring the QB? Against most of those alpha teams, one guy rushing doesn`t cut it. I can almost hear Sef 81 drooling right now over the thought of it.
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agree
May 07, 2007
2:15 PM | | | ; |
one rusher is a QB`s dream
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nope
May 07, 2007
2:22 PM | | | ; |
they line up 4 at the line, 3 will rush one will drop back and cover your 3 lineman. it`s aggressive and confusing for the o-line.
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.02
May 07, 2007
2:32 PM | | | ; |
well, typically IMHO you cant really play zone without 5 dbs, right? that leaves 3 to rush. Even with an empty backfield, you only need 4 dbs with man. So if you dont play a safety (ie the Lions), you can put 4 in the box and mix up who rushes. So basically man coverage gives you an extra body to move around. I suppose zone teams occasionally rush 4 and simply play 4 accross the back (ie like the "sticks" defense in the NFL) but that isnt standard.
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.02
May 07, 2007
2:37 PM | | | ; |
Oops, I forgot to address "no cents" point, but "nope" already did: when you play man, you can rush more people, typically.
For example: the NOVA`s. They tend to pack it in with TE`s and RB`s and do a GREAT job of protecting the QB and mixing up who goes out. With a zone, you rush 3. With man, you can rush 4 or even 5...leaving your corners on an island. The Scrubs, who also play man, usually do a pretty good job of that (which is why I am surprised by yesterdays score!!). But they dont have the Lion`s talent so they typically get gashed by the big play.
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Scrubs QB
May 07, 2007
2:53 PM | | | ; |
ah...finally a subject i know something about: my sucking. cant blame our defense for yesterday/one of the tds was on a pick, and the other times i gave the rhino`s great field position. we seem to be in a bit of a "transition phase" ; ))
as far as defenses go, as the slow dude with the big arm who has been around for 20+ seasons, i can tell you .02 nailed the three best defenses since i have been around. the other thing about man, is no "gimme`s" with little dinks and dunks. then again a 5 yard cross can go the distance if you get beat. having said all that, since most teams feature running qb`s zone might be smarter as it keeps your defense looking in the backfield longer.
then again, what do i know.
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Scrubs QB
May 07, 2007
3:10 PM | | | ; |
i think i am heading towards to the glue factory...
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Scrubs player
May 08, 2007
2:18 PM | | | ; |
Save me some I like glue!
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No cents
May 08, 2007
3:18 PM | | | ; |
some good points.. guess we have to part company on this one. I can see a little confusion on the part of the O-line, but still most QB`s will salivate at the thought of 1 rusher. And buy themselves enough time to beat man or zone coverage. And while a D maybe talented, I agree with the scrubs QB: one crossing pattern by an average WR can beat generally beat the best of man coverages.
Not to knock the Lions and they`re style of play here.. but they`ve yet to win, plus are they even around anymore?? When I think of the former champs, Lazy, Sharks, Plumber and Rhinos, I don`t ever recall seeing only one rusher. Maybe I`m wrong.. enjoying the debate though.
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one more time
May 08, 2007
3:39 PM | | | ; |
they play man on the WRs.
they line up 4 at the line and 3 will rush (sometimes all 4 will rush) basically give you the dump off to the linemem, betting that they`re fast enough to catch the big guys before they do much damage.
i have yet to see a team rush one unless it`s at the end of the game or half.
is that any clearer for you?
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No cents
May 08, 2007
4:07 PM | | | ; |
Now it sounds like you`re being just plain mean... so here`s my counter:
You`re in man.. I line up trips left with a backfield in the I formation. Send the WRs out on anything short and left. My RB runs a flare to the right flat, catches it on the run. Easy 10 yard gain - at a minimum. A good RB goes to the house. You really telling me any kind of defender can come up and cover that flare from the middle of the LOS? Even if he can, he has to defend a pretty easy pass to complete, or make a pretty difficult flag pull.
I`ll audible to that every time I see you in man.
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Scrubs qb
May 08, 2007
4:42 PM | | | ; |
ah...x`s and o`s. As a no-huddle team, we have a play for just about every defense there is. As an OCD flag FREAD, I love to talk about this stuff and have actually coached 3 other teams than my own.
So, if I may (crack open a beer...i can go on forever):
zone is predictable and safe. man is aggressive and risky. zone the dbs keep everything in front of them and keep their eyes in the backfield for as long as possible. this means little dumps to linemen and running backs dont get as many yards, and scrambling qbs arent quite as lethal. however, a SMART TEAM can easily nickel and dime a zone by taking the short stuff and flooding one side.
man is aggressive: db`s take wrs and very quickly get their backs turned from the backfield...it demands a good pass rush that contains the qb. it is much harder to nickel and dime man teams...you have to go for the big play (slants, crosses, etc.) by manipulating where the defenders go.
as for the example above, in man the trips will be covered by 3 dbs. there will still be 3 dl`s rushing like mad...and still TWO free defenders (NOT the case in zone)so you can either rush a 4th (better not miss the flag!) or play 2 safeties. remember, if i rush 4 the qb will have to get rid of the ball instantly=the lone safety can anticipate the dump to the rb and be ready for it. there are ways to get cheap yards against man, but rb out of backfield aint one of them.
having said all that (for the 2-3 people that might read all this crap), the NOVA`s play the best defense in the league. I didnt like facing the aggressive man teams (lions, raiders) but i knew i could score on any play...and did (along with plenty of picks!). the novas are smart as crap and disciplined: NEVER give up big plays, let you march down 7 yards at a time, then once inside the 10 or so (at least against us) switch to man and blitz like crazy (big plays are no longer a concern inside the 10).
blah blah blah. go ahead, flame me!
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Scrubs qb
May 08, 2007
4:42 PM | | | ; |
oops...i am a FREAK, not a FREAD
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Scrubs player
May 08, 2007
4:48 PM | | | ; |
I got the running back right?... ok now im just confused
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another ol` fart qb
May 08, 2007
6:09 PM | | | ; |
gimme a man defense anytime and, unless the qb`s trying to share the ball amongst all his receivers; he`ll quickly find the mismatch and exploit it. there`s also very little help for a man defense if one db`s relatively weak against his wr. conversely, a well played zone takes every bit of effort, like man to man, to be executed well and, from the offense`s perspective, requires discipline to take 7yrds at a time.
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Question
May 08, 2007
8:04 PM | | | ; |
What`s the best defense to play against a spread offense that includes double passing?
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Rhinos
May 08, 2007
8:22 PM | | | ; |
Brian (Scrubs QB) is right about the better
defenses switching between zone and man depending on field position and opposing team`s lineups. However, this can lead to confusion and breakdowns on D if you have
not played together for a while.
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.02
May 09, 2007
7:57 AM | | | ; |
Like Rhinos said...communication and discipline trump style. Having said all that, if you have the talent man is scarier to face than zone, IMHO. Like Speedy (ScrubsQb) said, you cant orchestrate cheap yards against man/you gotta earn it. And if they are better than you, well, thats the end of that.
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m&g
May 09, 2007
8:47 AM | | | ; |
have to agree with .02 to an extent. we got 1 guy who played in college and it was d3, MAYBE have 2-3 guys who run better than a 4.8, and if u look at our pic, youd say who are these chumps?? we jus try 2 avoid pickn up more than 1 guy each yr. our guys are in their 8th yr together and with fewer new faces, we know what each person has to do, where to be, and where to go. and with our lack of size and speed, we just try to use that to hammer fundamental football together and see if we can get a W. just my ".02", good luck to ya`ll and prolly see ya again at bark bowl (Sef, let somebody else draw for you this yr! tired of seeing ya`ll 1st rd, lol)
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.02
May 09, 2007
9:14 AM | | | ; |
M and G, That sounds like playing to your strengths, which is basically the take home message of all this talk: being smart.
The Rhinos deserve defensive credit too, since they can switch between man and zone without making too many mistakes. The biggest knock on them is since the Raiders retired, I am not sure they get tested enough playing at Hook (then again, who does get tested any more?).
Back to the question about spread offense: its vogue right now. Assuming their qb doesnt have a gun, I think the way to stop it is to VERY AGGRESSIVELY attack and hit anyone in the backfield BUT the qb: go after the qb quickly, but under control. Dont go for pump fakes. Send a db/a good flag puller. If you hammer any "escorts" in the backfield, who are there to trap you, BEFORE you get to the qb, you cannot be ambushed, IHMO. If the qb has a good arm, this approach has the disadvantage of giving the qb a couple of seconds to throw downfield unobstructed.
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Hook
May 09, 2007
9:40 AM | | | ; |
To give Hook a little props, 2 of the final 4 have come from Hook the last two seasons.
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Another Hooker
May 09, 2007
10:03 AM | | | ; |
indeed Hook is good... But I also think that maybe the Rhinos are just that good that they pass every test with an `A`. I mean the Raiders were about 4-5 years ago. I`d say the Rhinos improved since then. Between their option, double pass and QB`s arm, they seem to have all the weapons. And the defense, while basic in design, there rarely seems to be any holes to exploit, and the rush is always there no matter who you keep in to protect. I`m pretty sure they`ll be in the finals with the Nova`s.
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.02
May 09, 2007
10:13 AM | | | ; |
Cannot argue with any of that...
Another Hooker brings up a great point:
zone, man...doesnt matter...its all about the pass rush!!!
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Scrubs QB
May 09, 2007
11:37 AM | | | ; |
ah, i love lunch and seeing whats new on the board. i think i know who .02 is and my ol` friend is forgetting one small fact: the rhino`s arent the same team. slowly but surely they have shored up weaknesses that have left them a pretty darn complete team. my bad for not putting them up there with the nova`s defense since they are very similar: no big plays, keep it in front of you, etc. I think they are a touch more aggressive than the NOVA`s and will occasionally play man, blitz, etc.
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